The Empire Strikes Back - Borders v Logan III

Here we go...

First, Borders claims that the critiques of Will Wilkinson, Tom Palmer, and Matt Yglesias were all "dealt with." They were not, unless you count unconditional surrender as "dealing with."

In the comments section of Tom's blog, Borders demonstrated an astonishing ignorance (either in the sense of "never having studied" or, I think more likely "ignoring because it's convenient") of just war theory, the foundation of liberal thinking about war and peace.

To accuse me of being ignorant about the “foundation of liberal thinking about war and peace” while simultaneously failing to address my implicit and explicit references to Hobbes is just as much a sign of Logan’s desperation on this matter as his accusation that I’m ignoring Just War Theory out of "convenience." 

I ignore Just War Theory largely due to the fact of its obsolescence when applied to issues of 21st Century global terrorism. (Interestingly enough, my fellow blogger Chris thinks that the Iraq conflict and others can be justified on Just War grounds. I would be interested in hearing that case.)

Borders lamented Palmer's having invoked just war theory because "so called just war theory attempts to provide some sort of Enlightenment template of justification for war." A) Shudder that it were so! B) Just war theory well predated the enlightenment, and I'd even take its roots well further back than Palmer did, to St. Augustine, and the era of the fifth century when the Christian church decided to do away with its stringent adherence to pacifism.

My reference to the Enlightenment was not my attempt to place just war theory historically, rather to point out the common error of libertarians to apply universal templates to every issue with hackneyed dogmas—an old Enlightenment habit.

Logan:

When one dives in with sweeping claims about why the past millennium and a half's worth of thinking about war and peace is crap, one would think it would take more than one TechCentralStation article to do so.

It took less than the amount of time for me to write that TCS piece for crazy terrorists to bring down two buildings full of innocent people.  They are the ones who dealt 1500 years worth of Just War theory the death blow.  Not me.

Palmer went on to address Borders's bizarre theory of rights, one I'd like to again ask him to clarify: If you are outside of, say, the American constitutional order, are you presumed to be an enemy? Well, it's clear that Borders believes that people in some (all?) foreign countries do not have rights, or "rights" or "universal rights" or whatever we're calling them these days.

Wow, there must be buckets full of red herrings lying around Cato. Of course, two countries can make political agreements mutually to respect political “rights” in peacetime, but those extend to varying degrees based on such agreements. We are politically more like Britain than we are the Iran of the Mullahs, thus it’s easier to establish the preconditions for so-called political rights between both countries. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? The United States also has more interests in common with the Limies and the Frogs than they do the terrorists states. Still, those rights are ultimately not as strong as rights afforded to a US citizen. And likewise for a Brit at home. US citizens can't vote in Britain even though its guaranteed by our 14th Amendment. 

Borders conceded to Palmer that "Tom's right. I need to sit down and argue this in a 25 page journal article." That's not exactly dealing with the question, it's admitting that you haven't dealt with it…

This is context dropped. The 25 page journal article answer is in response to something else.  Looks like the sum total of explaining all this to Logan will equal 25 pages.

Instead of going back to the drawing board, Borders decides to skirt the issue on his blog: “People who live outside the auspices of such a [minimal, liberal] state and its underlying constitutional rules, are simply outside of it....Rights are circumscribed by constitutions (i.e. social contracts, roughly). So yes, if I have to give up a certain amount of power to a sovereign in exchange for protection, I expect that government to protect me and mine as best they can. The rest (like Iraqis) should be treated with decency, where possible--but this is not a normative should, rather a sentimental one.” For Borders, this articulation illustrates the "subtlety of a contractarian rights theory." I'll say it's subtle! But this is either another straw man or incoherent. First Borders claimed that "real rights...are conferred solely by...political institutions (and military power)." (emphasis added) He's baiting and switching here: are they conferred by a sovereign, or protected by a sovereign?

Jesus Mary Mother of God. “Real rights are conferred by political institutions” is not the same as saying “real rights are conferred by a sovereign.” The former expresses the complex relationship in a social contract between agents, their laws, and their government. So, yes, they are both conferred and protected by such institutions, unless you are one of these anarcho-capitalists who lives in a fantasy world where private Team Americas will go off and protect us from the baddies.

His position on the moral significance of foreigners is also incoherent. If they do not have rights, why should we treat them with decency? Can't we just smash their heads in with hammers, or nuke them, or boil them alive? What is a "sentimental should" and where does it come from?

If boiling people alive best served the interests of the American people, then it would neither be moral or immoral. It would just be grotesque, or indecent, or harsh. But since it doesn’t have any strategic value, we don’t boil people or nuke them.  A “sentimental should” means that most of us find such behavior unsavory, even barbaric--but it doesn’t match up against any grand moral standard etched into a Libertarian Rosetta Stone.  To momentarily digress into pop-philosophical obscurantism, it’s intersubjectively “wrong,” not objectively wrong (i.e. politically circumscribed).

Further, where does Borders draw the line with his social contract? If, say, the Turks start pissing us off, do they have rights? [no] Say those durned Frogs start acting up again: can we shift the "who gets to have rights" barrier over there? [not in war] Does Borders get to decide? [no] Does the U.S. government? [Yes] Why? [Because they make decisions on my behalf in a representative government. See more here]

Okay, but if you're going to completely throw rights theory out the window, overhaul what has been a long-standing, well-grounded libertarian (and liberal, in the broader sense) prescription against killing people unless they've done something to you, and throw out countless foundational tenets of libertarian thought, you ought to at least make a case for it. I am indeed saying "nuh uh," because the case Borders presents is not remotely libertarian, nor persuasive. Sneering at the long-standing libertarian position as "naive" (how do you make the diacritic? [usually pastes from Word to NotePad to Typepad]) is no better than Sager's characterization as "unserious," which Max concedes is unsatisfactory.

My understanding of Sager’s piece is that he thinks dovish libertarians are unserious about the War on Terror. I think his piece was weak in supporting such a claim.  My position with reference to Logan's Nozick citation is that libertarians tend to be naïve about rights and employ an unsustainable rights theory, generally (unless they’re contractarian like me). Also, they are often naïve about the dangers of terrorism and the need for active engagement in the Middle East. This is the strategic business that I look forward to arguing about in future exchanges.

Borders again attributes the claim: "based on universal rights, nations should not pursue their perceived interests" to me. False. The Nozick point was to reiterate that the rights that I believe foreigners possess should act as a moral side constraint on state action abroad.

How else am I to interpret your fidelity to universal rights?

Borders refuses to take up the strategic issue of what the hell we're doing in Iraq. (And if we can all agree to stop pretending we aren't talking about Iraq, that's fine by me.) Jesus, can anybody even tell anymore?!? Borders, for one, believes that "it will be a long-term benefit to attempt to change the Middle East—fundamentally." That's a pretty odd construction, and one that gets to the core of the libertarian perspective on government enterprises.

Odd that Logan is now prepared after questions of boiling foreigners to slide – yet again – into the prudential argument for Iraq. This is the new lib-dove two-step. You can find it in every single piece. Now, as for my ‘odd construction,’ I will say that it’s odd for one to sit idly by and wait for the Middle East to fester into a more dangerous cesspit than it already is, replete with Nukes, WMDs and crazy Jihadists ready to wield them given the next opportunity. (Come to think of it Sager may be right: Lib-doves are unserious.)

When pinko commie scumbags propose nationalizing the steel industry, or socializing the health care system, libertarians generally say two things: 1) "Get your grubby mitts out of my pocket, I earned that cash, go be productive yourself." (I'd call this the rights argument.)

Good eye. It’s justified here, because we are questioning policies internal to our constitutional regime, which affect our citizens who do have political rights.

2) "Oh yeah? How the hell do you think you're going to be able to do that?!? Look at history, man. Governments haven't been able to provide cancer treatments in Britain, bread in Soviet Russia, or prosperity in large swaths of the world. Here, let's look at the historical evidence..." (I'd call this the Hayekian argument.)

Right again! The Hayekian argument suffices for steering us off the road to serfdom domestically, but not to discount out-of-hand the use of force as a means of disrupting the Middle East’s status quo and planting the DNA of liberal democracy.  I realize that there are numerous public choice problems and other issues with having a government system of national defense.  But 3-5 percent GDP on military spending is not a wholesale planned economy.  While it's imperfect, its better than the alternative which is to have no national defense--or military militias like those found out in Utah. 

What Borders, Sager, et al understandably refuse to take up is #2. How in the hell are we going to do this? I put forth some questions for the libertarian hawks here, but have yet to receive responses. [Haven't read it, but will.]

Didn't refuse to take up that issue, though.  See my Hayek and Iraq piece and look for my next TCS piece. (I’ve yet to write it, due to this exchange.)

From reading the libertarian hawks, one almost believes that our Iraq project is going well. I was never sympathetic to the liberal hawk argument that the idea was good but that the Bush administration is just evil and stupid, and so they screwed it up. Libertarians were skeptical of such a hubristic endeavor from the start. It's beyond the limits of human knowledge.

To establish security, laws, and property rights in a country is beyond the limits of human knowledge? Don't think so.  What the Iraqis do with these institutions is beyond the limits of human knowledge.  This Hayekian fallacy had been used in a number of places.  If the US were trying to create a planned economy, they would be running afoul of Hayekian considerations.  Since they are trying to establish the conditions for spontaneous orders to emerge, they are not.  Whether they fail at such a project depends on how well they're paying attention to the basics:  security, the rule of law, and property rights.  Simple rules.

As I mentioned, there was nothing inherently unlibertarian about believing that Saddam was preparing to attack us and we had to stop him (I think this was naive, but not unlibertarian), but this remaking the political, social, and religious fabric of a region stuff is just bat-shit crazy! (And unlibertarian, because it ignores the central libertarian critique of government projects.

You’d be right if the US were going in to establish and plan a complete socialist democratic society. But to bring stability and set a constitutional order in motion is neither beyond comprehension nor “bat shit crazy.”

(PS: By the way, somewhere Logan mentions Randy Barnett as an advocate of Natural Rights.  Interesting, as he is a hawk.)

(PSS: I'm going to sign off now, so you can have the last word, Justin.  My suggestion is that after your last post, we take it offline over a beer since we're in the same town.)

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MK has decided to submit, which is pretty Moscow after 10 years 5-10 years through Moscow traffic is destined for collapse, a street gang violence and endless ethnic conflict. This is not a dream of a madman and excerpts from fiction novel, a scientist predicted that because of years of research made famous academician Igor Bestuzhev Lada. There are, however, and much more optimistic version. For example, the change of the Russian capital into a city-museum with a minimum of crime and high-speed public transport. Which way do go about Moscow? What awaits its residents and visitors? MK, together with the experts decided to present options for the development sobytiy.PROGNOZ Pessimistic Capital expects a large-scale danger when the Russian city rather continue to evolve without reason as it is now, after several years of waiting for large-scale crisis. So says renowned scholar, leader of the International Academy of Future Studies, author of several works according to the social structure of the population of Moscow, Academician Igor Bestuzhev Lada. - Az broker school of technology foresight, which is not predicted to be, and identify problems, weigh the consequences and seeks to address - said, MK Bestuzhev Lada. - Likewise, I freely declare: Moscow mature serious problems. To begin with real estate. Demand for housing in Moscow is always pretty to grow, even to give every Muscovite according apartment. First, housing is the best value for money. Secondly, people always want more. Third, Moscow attracts people with money, fourthly, there is a construction complex, which is to build and fairly. Moscow is now growing up, and causality in breadth it difficult to develop. This implies that so troubles. until just has bad habit to bring up the street. There, he brazenly requires 48 square meters: 12 square meters. m - car parking close to home, another 12 meters - close to work, even 12 meters - about entertainment, even 12 meters - to find for the road itself. Cars flooded the entire street. - Wait a Moscow traffic jams? - Our experts have calculated that a collapse would happen if the number of cars will exceed 4.5 million. Now registered 3,3 million cars, and each year added an average of 300,000. Thus, up to an hour X remains no more than four years. Next problem - the demographic. Muscovites were of one percent. Those who now calls himself Muscovites, mostly came from the villages. single year die if 125,000 Muscovites are born - 75,000, the difference - about 50 thousand. Similarly, these 50 000 I is renewable every way possible. single year in Moscow enter tens of thousands of foreign workers legally and hundreds of thousands - of illegal. We will soon move to performance in Paris, Munich, London, where up to half the population - people from Asia and Africa. Once these cities are located in stable countries. Our country - is very unstable. Our people can provoke for slaughter. - Only because the system limit established during the Soviet era. It turns out, the situation has been programmed? - During the 1980 Moscow became the city-parasite. the fourth was a single or official, or scientist, or worked in a mailbox, or service staff. Representatives of the latter two categories did not want the children went their way, and pushing them into higher education, science and management personnel. The capital felt a severe shortage of workers - like 300,000 seats per year. The Soviet government announced a limit - 100,000 per year. during the time, officials believed that Moscow will withstand such an influx. only failure occurred. There is a massive gathering in Moscow of people with different culture, who will surely face in our destabilized the city. And most only possible option, if they do not touch the Russian, but will fight among themselves, why, incidentally, not easier. We go for this. suddenly, and, indeed, to extinction, if the Russian-language Moscow to replace the thing else. Even now there are schools that teach only the Caucasian and Asian children. - You often say that the family institution has virtually disappeared. But it might be worth waiting for its revival? - You called another not a good trend, associated with a decrease in the indigenous population - the loss of the needs of the family according to his arrival in the city. Easier to make a career separately than to mess with her husband and children. All this, taken together, put in the position of Moscow city impasse, which is prepared meal for over 10 years. Likewise, because the choice between the best and worst we have to do in the near future. FORECAST Idealist The capital rather a conglomeration of several cities in comfortable but now - for the health. Moscow may stop city-tale, dream-city. if only to fulfill certain conditions. Heres a thesis metropolitan urban revolution, with a bright future in perspective. First, removed almost all the industrial zone. Plants should display in the small towns that are dying through unemployment. for Moscow, which are really high-tech production. Likewise, any extra acres not used before storage. Secondly, stolitshotya zbavlyaetsya a major industrial markets. But thirdly, in a perfect Moscow unsuitable officials - they are much clutter the streets and have a habit of overlapping motion. They need to create optimal conditions for work. Special young friendly town, 2 for 2 kilometers, with townhouses, administrative, embassies, guests, and financial district. 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